Debate over Denial - RPLOG
Participants
Date
7/6/477
Log
As it approaches noon in Firmament, a curious sight reveals itself. Surrounded by a handful of students, a goat of a professor has emerged from that illustrious institution known as the Firmament Academy, climbed on a small stand comprised of soap crates and is addressing passers-by on their way to noon mass.
The fellow certainly has come prepared. Awnings shield the worst of the sun from both him and part of the audience, and a number of seats have been prepared on the form of crates. The spectacle draws a few curious stares from some passing guards, but since the flow of traffic isn't impeded and everyone knows academics are crazy anyway, they don't do much for him.
The speech is already well under way, although it's hard to make out the details until one draws closer.
Among the collection of beings at the Academy, Selena unsurprisingly meanders through the highways and byways of the district - though the sight of anyone grandstanding in the academy in such a fashion isn't as common as one might think. Surely enough, the wolfess makes her way over the crowds curiously.
A tailflick, a rumble, a murr. Flora is out and about, carrying a clipboard with several notes, along with a paper-filled satchel as she moves about the area, silently observing the goat as she slinks closer. She casts another glance in the direction of Saints' Square, before smiling and mingling with the crowd.
Passing through the area, Cedric takes notice of the gathering near the academy, and letting his curiosity take over he wanders towards the crowd to try to hear the goat's words a little better. He makes his way through the crowd, trying to get near the front so that he can get a better look.
"...And I say, these are the rules which where apparently placed on the Creator merchant who attended to us last week. A copy was duly passed to the Academy," the goat says in loud, clear tones to the small crowd that has gathered. "They are very restrictive rules, I should add. I can understand no weapons of war - that is a reasonable restriction to place upon such merchandise. But look at this! What of purely peaceful spells and artefacts? Why would the Creators have reason to deny these to us?
"I, Associate Professor Lewis Pastor, have been studying - and treating - many illnesses for years on end in this glorious institution, and it is many a time that I have had to watch a patient die when all other treatments failed, when the church's few sacred doctors were all in use or recuperating. I am invited to the merchant's display, ask him if he could treat, say, a gravely fetid wound - and am told that yes, this is possible with the wonders of the Creators, but they are not for sale at any price, and for the most pathetic of pretexts, too!"
Selena raises an eyebrow at the commentary of the being's argument, rubbing her temples somewhat. It'd be hard to tell if it was expected or unwanted in the wolfess's eyes, but either way... The woman moves over to the being and coughs politely. "Isn't that topic better suited for a discussion at noonday mass rather than grandstanding in the academy district?" She asks perplexedly. "As much as I agree that it's unfortunate that creators aren't selling us cure-alls and the apex of their achievements, it's been cited that the creators overseeing this want to preserve our culture. Even our methods for treating disease could be considered part of our heritage, and if we could cure all ills, then where would the now-healthy population live? There's only so much food produced by farms, and while there aren't many numbers on the subject from what I understand, we'd end up living outside of our means." She states - the woman taking a tone obviously intended for reasonable debate rather than outright dismissal.
"May Flora ask a question? What if, hypothetically, mister Pastor did get those devices and then the creators leave, like they did before? Beings would rely on them, and when they break... Beings have no idea how to treat illnesses anymore... Flora is not saying Flora likes the ban on certain items, but... Relying on the Creators' technology for such a crucial thing... It sounds like a bad thing to Flora," the cat offers, looking up at the goat. "For the same reason, Flora can't ask for other objects, or even knowledge... Because without discovery... Can a being really say they understand something?" she asks, looking directly at the goat. Her own tone is more... Harsh than Selena's, but not dismissive either.
Cedric doesn't really have much to add to this debate, but he stands among the crowd listening with some interest towards the arguements given, nodding in response to Selena and Flora. These were all perfectly reasonable assessments of the situation.
"Ah, a reasonable debater, at last. None of that 'but it were the Creators who said it, their will be done' babble. Such nonsense." Lewis squints at Selena a moment over his horm-rimmed glasses. "Madame Hearthkeep? Your presence is welcome here. As opposed to what mine would be, were I to head over to the nearest church and make my views known there. If I will not use a ready-made venue, then I shall have to prepare one myself. Which my students have graciously helped me with, naturally.
"But to answer your concerns. That was the said pretext that I had considered in private, and it reeks of rank hypocrisy. Already in their own missives to us, they flaunt our styles, our fashions, they desire our art - I hear that the Creator doctor who was deported certainly had no interest in preserving her own culture. Why go to such lengths to 'preserve our culture', as they claim? Thinking back to the first fateful day which the first Creators landed in Shralesta, myths made real, they have already impacted us by their mere presence. And now even though they walk amongst us, converse, make demands, and deign to sell their fashions - well, if that is not a change of our culture at its most base level, I don't know what it is. The rich will want to emulate the Creators, the poor will want to emulate the rich. I personally find lives to be more important than some nebulous concept, if you will excuse me.
"Neither do their wonders exist isolated from each other. Are you saying that you would rather have good beings die avoidable deaths so there are fewer mouths to feed? Amongst those which were allowed on the merchant's craft were those which would allow us to better harness, and steward the land's bounty.
"Now, for the other concerns. I see none - the merchant has agreed to provide training for the devices he has agreed to repair. And clearly Madame Longtail does not rub two sticks together when she wishes to light her hearth, does she? No, she builds on the knowledge of those who have gone before, so that her life is easier. What purpose is there in asking us to rediscover these things, if we can be taught the fundemental concepts? Why should we forget things that we know, instead of building on them? The desire here is understanding, Madame Longtail, not blind ritual. This is why I am behooved to stand by the wayside this fine afternoon, giving my opinions to the populace."
Selena shakes her head a little and sighs at the response to Flora, rubbing her forehead. "Good afternoon to you as well, Flora." She greets the cat, before turning back to Lewis. "'The Noonday mass is a venue for discussion'." She simply quotes, sighing a little. "Unfortunately, Parson has yet to send us anyone that's willing to speak about creator politics. Sinclair was continually evasive on the subject no matter how I posed the questions. You also, remember then that some beings flung themselves at that ship and were turned to ash by their defenses, too? Running headlong into unknown territory is not to be taken lightly."
"While I can't speak for them when their motives are concerned, that is a question to ask the church to pose to Mr. Parson. It's not one you'll find preaching on a roadside. With due respect, though, likening using a creator machine to lighting a fire is an appalling simile and I'm sure you know it. No being on promise could tell you exactly how or why a creator doctor functions, or we would have no need of more. While our understanding is built on prior knowledge and evidence, frankly I believe that technologically speaking we're centuries behind them. What a 'basic concept' may be to them could still be outside of advanced knowledge to beings or utterly unattainable with our level of technology."
"No. But Flora understands how these methods to make fire work, because /beings/ have discovered their workings, made them, and mastered them. If Flora teaches a sand cat to fetch a branch, does it understand what fetching means, how it works? Or does it know 'if I fetch this branch, I am likely to get a piece of meat'? Then, if a being knows how to operate and repair a creator device... Does he truly know how it works, or does he know 'if I press these runes and pull these handles, people are cured'? If Flora explains her camera, does that mean mister Pastor understands it fully? Or does it mean mister Pastor has a rudimentary grasp of how it works? Beings are far, far behind creator technology, and... Lets face it, the creators would have to explain things they take for granted to us. Things that may very well be beyond our grasp. Beings need to have a chance to discover these things themselves, to feel the rush of invention, and to truly, fully understand the things they work with."
"Then you mistake the intention of the turn of phrase, Madame Hearthkeep. It was not to suggest that it was done with equal ease, but to illustrate that one stands on the shoulders of others to reach farther. Madame Longtail does not use sticks to light her fires, she presumably uses flint and steel, if not mathemagic. Why have her rediscover sticks when the principles of flint and steel are at hand? Why should be not at least begin to build on what has gone before, instead of wasting generations building up to their level?
"I am but an old being, but I know what I see with my eyes and reason with my mind. Why are the Creators being evasive? Why are they keeping unnecessary secrets that have very serious consequences for all of us? And then you ask me to ask them, after admitting that they were not forthcoming with answers. I will concede that we are far, far behind them - it is not expected that a child know everything you or I do - but even so, that is why we school our children. Perhaps I would not understand the direct workings of Madame Longtail's famous invention, but she could tell me where to begin, such that I might begin to learn and benefit from the road she has already travelled, and make things easier for me. I would not be doing things blindly or ritualistically, as she suggests, and due to the benefit of her experience, would be treading hardly unknown territory. That, the Creators will not even do, and under pretexts that they themselves contradict. You will excuse me if I conclude that they have less than completely pure intentions.
"Which is why, as I said, I and my students are here on the street pontificating. Too many beings trust Creators blindly, when even the Church has admitted that some of them are less than wholly pure after that ugly incident in Thera'dor. No doubt noon mass is a place for discussion - of mundane, daily affairs that are unlikely to cause controversy. I would like some, at least, to question the default beliefs regarding the Creators' motivations, examine the arguments and evidence, and then come to their own conclusions. Not because I said so."
Selena sighs a little. "It's all the more reason to take this kind of discussion to a noonday mass. How many beings have you had approach you about this topic since you begun speaking of it here?" She replies, sighing a little. "If the church doesn't want controversy over a matter that it has direct presidency over, then frankly too bad for them - they are the most likely to have or be capable of obtaining answers to your questions." She reiterates.
"I understand what you were attempting to convey, though. While we can use sticks, flint and steel or magic to produce fire, it's all done through different methods of introducing heat to flammable material. Were all things as simple as extensions upon each other then my work on creator magic would be utterly unnecessary, much less the work I'm doing on three-dimensional kevinscopes. Even if something may logically follow, actually proving such a connection is far harder than you would expect and that, Lewis, is what is not so easily conveyed. The questions 'why' and 'how' are important, and I'm fairly certain that if I was to explain from the bare basics how such a spell as my proof works it would take years worth of writing to build from the ground up a comprehensive guide to understanding the fundamentals of spellcraft, definind relevant variables and their functions and stringing it together appropriately. Now imagine that sort of a library only focussed on technology most beings can't understand the basics of being handed down. There's a saying in Cliffside that a healers, not killers, know the most about death than any other. One closer to home says that 'Inquisitive minds, danger finds'. I don't think I need to explain how fire magic has turned from utility to the most practiced form of combat magic on promise."
"Suppose it happens. Suppose beings learn the ways of the creators? Would we still be shaping our own path, or would we merely go the way those that teach us want us to?" Flora offers after a moment of contemplation. "Who is to say they won't withold crucial information without our knowledge? Beings would be forever hidden those things that would truly benefit them, or hamper, but we wouldn't learn our own lessons. If, mister Pastor truly advocates beings to question the default beliefs of the creators, and wants people to draw their own conclusions, why, if Flora may ask, does mister pastor not want beings to draw their own conclusions about math, about medicine? Why does mister pastor want beings to 'default' to the creator's technology, rather than... Draw their own conclusions, or rather, make their own devices? This seems... Contradictory to Flora."
"On one hand, mister Pastor advocates thinking for oneself, while on the other, Flora hears him asking for the creators to hand him their discoveries on a silver platter? Or is Flora wrong in this?"
"Friend Selena further illustrates Flora's point. With something the beings themselves have discovered, the problem remains. It takes years to understand something fully, and it is, in the end, better to understand how things follow from one-another step by step, learning along the way. Failing, succeeding... There's no such thing. There's only learning more, yes. This works, that doesn't, and that's what would be lost if the creators would hand us everything. We would only learn what they teach us, and we would miss mistakes they see as obvious. If Flora may give an example?"
The cat pulls out her scorcher, smiling faintly as she removes the tube from its compartiment, before twisting off the back, an act only the highest priests have been permitted for a very, very long time. "In here is a small silvery disc. Removing it can break the Scorcher, and why? Because beings put it back the wrong way around. Sometimes, problems are that obvious that no-one tells you about them. Some scorchers have been broken like that for more than one-hundred years, as well, so this is a very real thing," she murrs, even as she closes the tube and puts it back in its gunmount.
Cedric simply watches, listening, a little amused by the discourse but still not having much to add. He could certainly go on a tirade about the creators treating beings like children if they were to just ask for everything to be handed to them, but he keeps quiet for now.
"Don't go twisting my words. I did not ask for everything to be outright handed to us, or for us to accept the Creators' knowledge blindly or wholesale. No doubt they will sell us their garments in our sizes, with holes cut out for tails, fabrics that do not chafe our hides and fur, and so forth - they certainly seem to be taking whatever they like from us. I fail to see why we cannot add our own touches to their works - which should naturally happen if we are so different that our uniqueness needs preserving.
The professor huffs. "We can stand here and talk all day, but the final point of this line of reasoning is that there are those in need of help which cannot be provided for themselves, and that help is not forthcoming from those who have the ability to do so with the minimal amount of effort. It is not in my nature to stand idly by, madames, while plague rages in the southwest. Even the local yokels I sent messages to asking for help in providing me with samples have failed to come through after so many weeks - who knows, they may have sickened and died themselves.
"The both of you are still young. You think you walk out to the shanties, and you see the worst Promise has to offer - and it may be so in one way, I'll grant you that. Maybe one day you'll be faced with someone dying on their sickbed, asking if they will live, and you know there's nothing you can do. Will you tell them no to their face, or will you lie?"
Professor Pastor looks out over the crowd. "I hope I've made my point, and the two madames theirs. I want you to consider what all of us have said, as far as you can. As for you, Madames, I'm afraid we'll have to disagree, if politely. Adryn, Samantha, please help the others take down the get-up. I'll see you in my office."
Selena tsks quietly. "That we will. But I insist that the next time you feel the need to preach these things that you do so to the church rather than to a passing crowd. If you truly want results then there is a good place to start in front of you. In fact, I don't doubt taking on more students would be of equal benefit if you can - the more educated minds there are seeking answers the more likely one is to be found."
"For that matter though, when I walk through the Shanties I see more misfortune and unnecessary suffering caused by the clan system and beings being unwilling to venture there to give the younger beings a chance, but I digress - yes, there are criminals and murderers there. But there are criminals and murderers no matter where you are, from the castle district to the maritime. I would take a moment to consider whom you are throwing names at as well. Whether you doubt their intelligence or not, assistance in any research of that kind deserves some measure of respect that should not be afforded only to the being organizing it. Knowing they risk death simply returning a sample is enough deterrant for most."
"While I can't say that I have been in such a position to tell a being their fate, my interpretation of this situation is this: Do I give the being an honest answer and allow them to fill their last days as they desire, or do I lie and leave them with any number of possible regrets should they pass away? There are certainly some cases where a being may react violently to the news. Some where they might not."
Turning back to the the beings gathered around, she raises her voice a little. "To all of you that have been listening to this: I urge you to take your views and concerns directly to the creator church not because they have answers but because they can contact the creators that do. That is all."
"Your... Samples? Those flasks marked 'do not open'?" the cat offers with a raised brow, her ears flicking lightly. "They were eaten by a cephalopotamus. Mister Pastor might try the guard. Unfortunately, when an animal dies of a mysterious disease... Handing the thing that most likely did it to its intended recipient is... Not the top priority."
"As for adding our own touches to their work? We may. Once we have learned to harness the lightning ourselves, to tame it. Once we have learned to traverse the stars. Once we have discovered all these wonders on our own. And of course... If we beings are to stand on our own, would mister Pastor have us run back to the creators for anything we can't figure out?"
"As for mister Pastor's question... Flora has to agree with friend Selena."
"As for Flora... Flora will be heading to the church now, yes. Flora has some things to discuss, some things to hand in, and hopefully, a response to recieve from last week's... Discussion, yes," she mumbles with a rumble as she turns around, using a pen to mark one or two things on her clipboard, silently, already back in her business-mode, but not too far to hear Pastor's response... Yet.
Cedric begins to wander off as the debating seems to be dying down now, making his way through the crowd of beings and pushing past a few of them. After all of this, he's forgotten where he was headed in the first place, before getting curious about the crowd.
Perhaps there would be some further discussion forthcoming from the professor or one of his students, but when one says the discussion is ended, it appears he meant it. The spectacle over, the crowd rapidly departs, and the awnings and boxes are taken away, leaving the Academyy district as clean and pristine as it once was.
